This is an audio transcript of the Life and Art from FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘Billie Eilish still doesn’t care, and it’s still working’
Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and this is our Friday chat show. Today we are talking Billie Eilish’s new album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is her third studio album. It’s co-produced with her brother Finneas and the album is meant to be listened to in its entirety. There were no advance singles put out beforehand, and as Billie put it, it’s, quote, an album-ass album. The album is a tight ten tracks. In it, she talks about break ups, body shaming, the pressure of growing up in the spotlight, having sex with girls, and critics so far are loving it. So today we’re going to talk about it. I’m Lilah and the old me is still me, maybe the real me and I think she’s pretty. Here with me in New York, I wish her the best for the rest of her life, it’s the FT’s US media correspondent, Anna Nicolaou. Hi Anna.
Anna Nicolaou
Hi.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome. And joining us from London. She’s taking pictures in the mirror. Oh, my God, her skin so clear. It’s our great music writer, Arwa Haider.
Anna Nicolaou
You truly choose from the best lyrics.
Arwa Haider
Amazing, amazing lyrical introduction. Thank you so much, Lilah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Thank you both for humouring me yet again. I’m so happy to have both of you. Why don’t we just get into it? Top line, did we like the album? What did we think? Arwa?
Arwa Haider
I loved it. I was really looking forward to hearing it. I really find Billie Eilish just immensely likeable. She just, I think, continually evolved into such an interesting artist and such an admirable one as well. And I actually think I probably felt a bit ambivalent about the second album that came out in 2021. Happier Than Ever felt kind of fragmented and subdued to me, even though I still wanted to like what she was doing. But this, yeah, just got me from the get-go. Yeah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Cool. Anna what about you?
Anna Nicolaou
It has grown on me. I think I’ve reached the point where I can wholeheartedly say I really like it. But it took me a long time to get to that place which concerned me. My preface is that I really like Billie Eilish. I consider myself a fan. I think my mistake was I listened to it for the first time on speakers, not on headphones. So my first reaction was a bit like it just felt a little bit like what she’s always done before. I found it a little repetitive, but then when I listened to her in headphones the second time, and maybe this is part of what she’s trying to do, I mean I literally heard a lot of sounds I didn’t hear when I didn’t listen to it on headphones. So yeah, I do like it. I wouldn’t say I loved it. I feel complicated about it.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Like both of you, I really like her and I feel also protective of her because she grew up famous and she’s way cooler than most other pop stars. And it took me a few listens to get into it as well. But I really like it now.
Arwa Haider
It’s funny, though, that listening to both, you know, both of your reaction sound like exactly what she was possibly hoping that listeners would do. You know, where you put the commitment in to let the album grow on you and, you know, without kind of giving it a timeframe or anything. And, I guess back in the olden days, when albums were just the conventional format, that’s what you would do. You go out and spend your Saturday job money or your pocket money on an album, and you kind of force yourself to listen to it. I feel like that was kind of possibly a deliberate tactic on her part. That’s kind of what she wanted, not something that was just ephemeral and just an instant hit. And then you’re on to the next thing.
Anna Nicolaou
I agree.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, I agree too. I also liked that it was a tight 10 tracks. And like a nice short album that you could listen to a bunch of times in a day. Let’s talk about some of the songs on the album. I know it wasn’t meant to have individual singles, but we would be remiss not to talk about “Lunch”. It’s the poppiest song on the album. It could be a song of the summer. It’s already kind of gone viral. I’ve heard it called a filthy banger.
Anna Nicolaou
Who said that?
Lilah Raptopoulos
Lulu.
[LAUGHTER]
[“LUNCH” PLAYING]
Anna Nicolaou
I liked it, I think. I mean, actually, I don’t know why I have these complicated feelings about everything, but I liked it. I think that sometimes when I think about what life would have been like if I were a teenager and all of these gay pop girls existed, I just have to, like, lay down. It’s just, like, too overwhelming. At the same time, I already feel like it’s being, like, commodified, which is kind of funny because I feel like this whole album is like she wants the opposite of that. But yeah, I feel like the most annoying person you know is posting about “Lunch” and how it’s their new anthem. Do you know what I mean?
Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. So “Lunch” is this, like, kind of awesome queer pop song about, like, wanting to do sexual things to a woman. And it is actually an amazing song. And it would have been amazing if there were songs like that out when we were kids. Yes. And you’re already anticipating, is what you’re saying, this sort of commodification of that song which, like, glues it, it loses its power.
Arwa Haider
You know, I don’t think it will, though. And I, you know, you’re absolutely right. Commodification is something that, you know, a mainstream pop star is going to be navigating because obviously she’s huge. She’s on the cover of glossy magazines and she makes really high production videos. And, yeah, there’s no there’s no getting away from that side. But I still feel like, firstly, this is an amazing pop song. It’s a great summer bop, and it’s track two on the album. The album I felt started strong. I mean, “Skinny” is a very good song, but I just really love the kind of urgency and the kind of insouciance of “Lunch”.
I guess, you know, having grown up at a time, which is much more, to be quite frank, biggest hit in the mainstream, as much as there are amazing pop stars in the 80s and 90s, it’s just so refreshing that it’s not even something that actually kind of warrants focus in its own right. She’s just singing about who she wants to sing about and she seems to be expressing it for herself. You know, I think there was a bit of a kind of tradition of female pop stars presenting sort of titillating material for a, you know, old male audience. I think Madonna kind of did that a little. Well, quite a lot, actually. Even though Madonna deserves credit for lots of things, I think it often felt like she was kind of very, very desperate to please. And I don’t think Billie Eilish sounds like she’s trying to please anyone apart from herself and probably the object of her desire here as well, which I think is brilliant.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. So maybe even if it does get commodified, it’s fine. We can ignore it. What’s one more song on the album that really, you found really interesting?
Arwa Haider
I genuinely loved the whole album, but “Chihiro” is one I love. I love the, I mean, my reference point, it’s named after the main character in the anime Spirited Away, whose name is taken away from her for most of the film. And I just really love the way that song fluctuates. It’s not conventional in lots of ways, but it also has a really strong melody. I think her voice sounds both wispy and powerful at the same time, and it just has this kind of delirious energy towards the end that just summons everything that’s great about being on the dance floor. So I love that.
[“CHIHIRO” PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
Cool. What about you, Anna?
Anna Nicolaou
I like the wailing songs. So I like “The Greatest”. I really liked how cinematic it gets towards the end. And yeah, I just kind of like when she starts, like, screaming. So for me, that one worked.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. I really loved the song “L’Amour De Ma Vie”. Sorry, I have a terrible French accent. Just horrible. L’Amour De Ma Vie, which, uh, the love of my life. It starts as this crooner song about missing an ex, basically. And then about two-thirds of the way in, it becomes this kind of, insane 80s dance track in a way. Synthy and fun. And presumably she’s over the break-up and now rebounding.
[“L’AMOUR DE MA VIE” PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
There’s very mixed reactions to it. Someone I talked to said, I wish they had just cut that song in half. They were two different songs. I think Pitchfork said that, I don’t know, they thought that it was sort of juvenile. I loved it. I mean, I love that they did something. But I’m curious what you both thought of that.
Arwa Haider
She’s 22 by the way. I mean, yeah. the fact that she’s being kind of called out for being youthful is really weird, but sorry, Anna, you were saying.
Anna Nicolaou
No, I was going to say it seems clear to me that they are basically two different songs, like Frankensteined together. But I didn’t mind that. She kind of did that with “Happier Than Ever”. Beyoncé has done that with stuff recently. I definitely don’t mind kind of like experimentation in that sense. What’s the problem?
Arwa Haider
I think some of best songs historically have been two songs stuck together. I think, like, you know, that’s not necessarily a weakness. It didn’t sound disjointed to me. I kind of liked the fact that it didn’t rein in where it wants to go. And it’s still to me, there’s lots of really strong melodies on there. She sounds very distinctive. It kept me interested. And tight 10 tracks, as you say. But also none of the tracks are actually overlong. They just do a lot within the time that they’ve got.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Right, right. What about songs that you didn’t like or was there anything you felt was missing? She has this kind of like wailing minor chord energy to some of her music. Like, “Wildflower” was sort of like that. I get kind of get distracted when those songs are on. I, like, stop paying attention.
Anna Nicolaou
I mean, yeah, I guess my biggest criticism of this album is I wanted a bit more. It felt like things were kind of pulled back and very restrained. And maybe that was the whole point. She’s kind of like telling us to be patient and kind of let things unfurl as they are. But I guess I just wanted, like, 20 per cent more. I actually liked “Wildflower”, but there were certain parts where I was like, this would be great background music. I don’t know that that’s a good thing.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
OK let’s talk about how this all fits into Billie Eilish’s career and what she’s possibly trying to say with this album. Arwa, can you give us some back-story? What do people need to know about Billie Eilish and how she got here?
Arwa Haider
Sure. I mean, it’s kind of incredible to think this is her third album because Hit Me Hard is predated by two multi-platinum albums, and she is just 22. On one level, she creates tracks that are extremely immediate and just images that are just really resonant. But she’s also got a very alternative twist to her as well. And I think she’s also been very candid in her songwriting from the very first set of tracks that she put out. And a lot of artists will express the challenges of being in the spotlight or growing up with all this kind of mainstream fame and the intensity of that and the isolation of that. But I think she manages to do it in a way that feels so lucid and also feels empowering to the listener, which I really respect about her.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. It feels pretty, she has always felt to me as a pop star, like quite, just different than other pop stars. Like, she doesn’t really care. She’s honest in her songwriting, but she’s honest in interviews. She kind of wears baggy clothes and hides her body and never felt like she had to show her body. Early on, she was, like, ripping out her Invisalign on stage, and just gross kind of an epic quality to her.
Anna, can you talk about, like, where she’s fit into the music industry? Was she kind of cultivated the way other pop stars were or did it happen differently?
Anna Nicolaou
It’s funny, because these people get commodified so quickly in the business, quote. So like, people talk about Billie Eilish all the time like she’s like a product, effectively. You know what I mean? And as I was saying on our other podcast, and not to repeat myself, but like, she’s one of the few new pop stars they have. She seems to embody a lot of things that they find acceptable in a way. Like she’s clearly an artist who’s clearly very talented. The music itself is very well-produced and high quality. But she is also obviously young and has, her hair colour changes all the time, and they’ll kind of be like, oh, we’re not out of touch because we really like Billie Eilish. Do you know what I mean? Like, you would look at her and be like, this is this very rebellious person but she also somehow fits the mould of what everyone’s looking for in a pop star.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. Another example of that is that she came out recently. She sort of talked about her queerness in an interview, and everybody freaked out and she’s like, oh, what, did I not come out earlier? I thought everyone just assumed it. Like it was very sort of like, I don’t, I’m sorry were there rules for pop stars before that’s not . . . and nobody told me about that.
Anna Nicolaou
Yeah. Yeah. Which would have been like earth-shattering for so many previous era pop stars, I guess you’d say.
Arwa Haider
I mean, I totally agree with what you what you were saying. I mean, like, I feel like she’s positioned as a kind of weird-kid superstar, because if you just look at just the scale of what she does is just phenomenal. You know, the tour that is going to accompany this latest album is so expensive. In London alone there’s several dates. And then, you know, obviously it goes to every territory around, you know, America and Europe. But yeah, there’s just something incredibly relatable about her.
When I first really started to listen to her music, being of a much older generation, I think her petulance really appealed to me. And having been the kids that, you know, being the girl that like, everyone was like, oh, you know, why don’t you smile more? Cheer up. Blah, blah, blah. Which always really annoyed me when I was a teenager. I kind of figured that Billie Eilish represented the teenager that I wanted to be, but I was just the dork that kind of wouldn’t make eye contact with anyone, but Billie Eilish sort of embodied that. So it’s kind of interesting to see that as a much older, music fan and just think it’s cool. I hope, you know, I hope younger music fans are getting a lot out of this as well.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. With all of this in mind, where does this, where do you think this album fits into her career? I mean, she’s what? She’s only 22. I’ve heard her say in interviews with Finneas, the two of them say that like, they think that, you know, an artist has like five good albums in their career. So she’s three in. But I don’t know. Do you see it as, like, a place where she’s trying to move herself into something different? Is it a different stage in her life? Is she trying to be seen in a different way? I don’t know, how did you interpret it?
Anna Nicolaou
I think, I mean, I think she will have a long career. I think this album, like, I mean, I don’t know, despite my kind of lukewarm response to it, it’s been, received very, very well by critics. I think she’s reached, she is already at this very early stage, reached a level of success where she has the luxury of kind of being like, this is what I wanted to do, and I don’t care if it’s not what you particularly wanted. And maybe it’s not like what people would think is good for the radio or whatever, you know, metrics that people would use to catch your attention. So I think it’s cool that she just did that and did what she wanted versus . . .
But we’re seeing a lot more of that, like we’re seeing with like Lana Del Rey and even like arguably like Beyoncé and Taylor and putting out stuff that’s not like particularly palatable for like the traditional album you would think of, right, like really long albums in the case of Beyoncé and Taylor or like songs that don’t really make sense in the traditional, like, you’re going to make a three-minute song that’s snappy. So I think it’s cool that she’s doing that. I think this will just kind of carry on. I think she’ll have a long career. I get why she might not think that, but I just feel like everything . . . I mean, if she wants to, I think everything’s positioned for her to exist for a while.
Arwa Haider
Yeah. I mean, I think she sounds more comfortable in her own skin and whether that’s by dint of the success that she has earned to date or just the life experience that I think you get by that point in your life, although her life has obviously been quite extraordinary. I read an interview with her recently where she was saying at her 20th birthday party a couple years ago, she looked around the room and like everyone was an employee. And I thought that was heart-rending because that’s such a significant birthday. And then, you know, just being like, oh my God, like, my life’s come to this where, you know, you’re successful, but maybe you’re completely disconnected from reality. So maybe she just has that kind of healthy grounding, alongside this completely stratospheric kind of vision.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, there are also, I also feel like there are a lot of stars where, they put out a first album or first and the second, and they’re not really well known yet, so their life is somewhat normal and they’re great and they say something and once they get famous, they don’t really know what else to say. But I feel like she always, she’s like very, I don’t know, she’s tapped into, she’s always saying something interesting. I don’t think her fame is like keeping her from interesting content.
Arwa Haider
Yeah. I love to see it.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. Me too. Arwa and Anna, thank you so much. This is so much fun. We will be back in just a moment for More or Less.
[UNTOLD” POWER FOR SALE PODCAST TRAILER PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome back for More or Less, The part of the show where each guest says something they want to see more of or less of in culture. Arwa, let’s start with you. What do you have?
Arwa Haider
I tend to go for more of because I’m greedy and I find pop culture incredibly exciting. Diaspora voices and I think, specifically Arabic diaspora voices, which is something I didn’t grow up getting to hear or see a lot of. And there’s too many names to mention, but I’ve been a long time fan of Yasmine Hamdan, who’s a Lebanese singer-songwriter based in Paris and Just makes really beautiful music.
Lilah Raptopoulos
We’ll put her name in the show notes. We’ll put everything in.
Arwa Haider
She’s amazing. And also in the UK, where I’m based, Saliah, who’s a British-Lebanese, is just a fantastic DJ producer. She did a track called Habibi Riddim, which is one of my favourite tracks of certainly the last couple of years, just really, really, intense basslines and beats, but then also draws from, like, classical Arabic music. I didn’t grow up with this stuff. And I also grew up with this kind of notion that, you know, if you had heritage from elsewhere, there’s this sense of a culture clash, which is ridiculous because, you know, we’re all composites, aren’t we? And I love the fact that artists I’ve mentioned here embody this, you know, sense not of trauma, but of joy and defiance and pride and beauty and quite frankly, all the things that embody being an Arab female, I think. And I think it’s fantastic to feel not only seen, but heard as well.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, I love that, Arwa. Thank you. And also, every time you send me a recommendation, it sends me down a joyful rabbit hole. All right, Anna. What about you?
Anna Nicolaou
I’m going less. My thoughts are much dumber than Arwa’s.
Arwa Haider
Oh, come on.
Anna Nicolaou
Definitely don’t need to be in the shownotes, but I want less of social media in general. That was my main reaction to this album was being, like, yeah, she’s right I’m so tired of this. Like, this morning I was looking at TikTok, which is my own fault. And there’s these girls on TikTok who have convinced me that oatmilk is really dangerous. I’m just so tired of it. And I just, I’ve reached my own personal breaking point. People should post less and stop making all these things into a thing. Oatmilk is fine. Like, I just, I don’t know, I just sort of I used to like, really, like, engage with normal life, like. And I don’t know. That was my takeaway from this album. And I’m going to stick to a more lo-fi life.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Yeah. Good.
Anna Nicolaou
Yeah. I’m done.
Lilah Raptopoulos
OK. I also have a less this time. My less is just less. I just, I moved recently and I had to face every item of everything that I own, and I had about seven vinegars and I had too many clothes and too much meat in the freezer and so many grains. And so I set this rule in our household, which is just to like use everything. Wear all the clothes that I don’t wear. Try not to buy new stuff. Read the books. And so the other day. I just pulled up, I almost close my eyes. I went around the corner and I pulled a book out of the shelf without looking at what it was, and just started to read it. And it was an old book that I never read about the New York City subway, and a man who just like interviewed people every day in there for four years. And, I just had a lovely 30 minutes reading it. And so that’s my recommendation.
Anna Nicolaou
You’ve somehow turned a less into a more.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes.
Anna Nicolaou
You’re just too positive of a person. You can’t even do it.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I mean, read your books. More using your stuff. Less flavoured vinegars. Use your vinegar. Arwa and Anna, that was so fun. Thank you so much for being on the show.
Arwa Haider
Oh. It’s brilliant. Thank you.
Anna Nicolaou
Thank you.
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I put some links to things we talked about on the episode in the show notes, including those recommendations from Arwa and the FT’s review of Hit Me Hard and Soft. Every link that brings you to the FT gets you past the paywall. Also in the show notes are ways to stay in touch with me on email and on Instagram. And if you don’t mind giving us a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen, we would be so grateful. It really helps support the show. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and here is our amazing team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco. With original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely week and we’ll find each other again on Friday.
